2025-03-18 16:02:50 <@samccann:ansible.im> !startmeeting DaWGs aka Documentatin working group 2025-03-18 16:02:51 <@ansibot:ansible.im> Meeting started at 2025-03-18 16:02:50 UTC 2025-03-18 16:02:52 <@ansibot:ansible.im> The Meeting name is 'DaWGs aka Documentatin working group' 2025-03-18 16:02:54 <@samccann:ansible.im> that's better! 2025-03-18 16:03:05 <@samccann:ansible.im> @room who's around to talk the docs today? 2025-03-18 16:03:17 <@samccann:ansible.im> Raise your ascii hand (o/) to say hi or any other way you want to let us know you are here. And Welcome to any new folks! General run of the meeting - We go over action items, give docs updates… maybe have a topic or two, and go over doctooling updates (all the fun stuff behind the scenes that get us docs.ansible.com!) 2025-03-18 16:03:30 <@samccann:ansible.im> official agenda at https://forum.ansible.com/t/documentation-working-group-agenda/153/7 2025-03-18 16:04:44 <@samccann:ansible.im> !topic Triage 2025-03-18 16:04:53 <@samccann:ansible.im> one new issue today 2025-03-18 16:04:58 <@samccann:ansible.im> !link https://github.com/ansible/ansible-documentation/issues/2442 2025-03-18 16:05:02 <@x1101:matrix.org> o/ (kinda) 2025-03-18 16:05:20 <@samccann:ansible.im> Welcome Lyle... however much we have of ya today 2025-03-18 16:06:41 <@samccann:ansible.im> So this new issue is about the layout of the docs. It's fairly clear etc but I wonder if we should: 1. see if it's the same on RTD 2025-03-18 16:06:52 <@samccann:ansible.im> 2. move it to the theme repo that actually controlls all this? 2025-03-18 16:08:31 <@samccann:ansible.im> for #1, yeah I think its the same https://ansible.readthedocs.io/projects/ansible/latest/getting_started/basic_concepts.html 2025-03-18 16:08:58 <@samccann:ansible.im> #2 - unless someone screams, I'll move it to the ansible sphinx theme repo 2025-03-18 16:09:03 <@orandon:ansible.im> it's probably an issue with the sphinx theme 2025-03-18 16:09:15 <@orandon:ansible.im> yeah, please do move it to that repo 2025-03-18 16:09:26 <@orandon:ansible.im> that theme needs to be rewritten for responsiveness 2025-03-18 16:10:23 <@acozine:ansible.im> o/ 2025-03-18 16:10:31 <@acozine:ansible.im> totally lost track of my calendar 2025-03-18 16:10:36 <@samccann:ansible.im> gah. it crosses org boundarys in github. I'll have to recreate the issue. I'll do that later 2025-03-18 16:10:51 <@samccann:ansible.im> Since we have some folks, let's talk meeting times 2025-03-18 16:10:56 <@samccann:ansible.im> !topic meeting times 2025-03-18 16:11:15 <@samccann:ansible.im> ^info we're considering shifting this meeting out later in the day to gather more people when they are available 2025-03-18 16:11:50 <@samccann:ansible.im> Oranod: since you are in Europe, what are your thoughts about moving this out some? I know later starts eating into your evening time etc 2025-03-18 16:12:00 <@acozine:ansible.im> interesting, does that make it easier or harder for folks in Europe? 2025-03-18 16:13:53 <@orandon:ansible.im> I'm fine with later. this time is usually kind of hectic for me. kids in the house right now for instance. and I need to drop my daughter to an after school thing soon. 2025-03-18 16:14:00 <@orandon:ansible.im> hey acozine 2025-03-18 16:14:14 <@samccann:ansible.im> What time works for you then? 2025-03-18 16:14:55 <@orandon:ansible.im> I think 19.00 GMT is alright. I wouldn't mind hearing from Felix Fontein as he might be around then too. 2025-03-18 16:15:12 <@orandon:ansible.im> maybe we could combine this with the community WG meeting somehow? 2025-03-18 16:15:38 <@samccann:ansible.im> Can you bring it up at the community WG meeting this week? 2025-03-18 16:18:56 <@orandon:ansible.im> I feel like we've gone back and forth with this meeting time too much. maybe we should just discontinue them? 2025-03-18 16:19:46 <@samccann:ansible.im> i think if we discontinue the meeting, we kill the documentation working group 2025-03-18 16:20:13 <@samccann:ansible.im> but I'm biased as being one of the originals that helped get this group off the ground 2025-03-18 16:21:05 <@acozine:ansible.im> is the working group still serving a purpose? is it helpful to have? is it worth building up? 2025-03-18 16:21:22 <@samccann:ansible.im> well our docs issues are just back to constantly increasing 2025-03-18 16:21:27 <@acozine:ansible.im> as another of the originators of the group, I too am biased 2025-03-18 16:21:33 <@samccann:ansible.im> We started out in the 60s and are now approaching 90 open issues 2025-03-18 16:21:42 <@acozine:ansible.im> ah, that's not ideal 2025-03-18 16:21:46 <@samccann:ansible.im> But I know I haven't been engaged as I was in the past 2025-03-18 16:22:29 <@orandon:ansible.im> yeah, that's true. I tried to get through some issues in the PR queue last week. 2025-03-18 16:22:35 <@orandon:ansible.im> things seem to be piling up a bit 2025-03-18 16:22:36 <@samccann:ansible.im> But also... we don't cover a lot here these days. There's RTD updates, and triaging issues. I do get help from this group on that one because sometimes I haven't a clue 2025-03-18 16:22:55 <@orandon:ansible.im> it seems like this working group has gone a bit quiet 2025-03-18 16:23:22 <@samccann:ansible.im> we'rre pretty good on the PRs, but solving issues? we've increased by what... 50% if I do the math right in the past year on unsolved issues 2025-03-18 16:23:33 <@orandon:ansible.im> one of the reasons I was thinking about the time change was to try and find a time when Felix or gotmax might be around more 2025-03-18 16:24:30 <@samccann:ansible.im> so we have a few options 2025-03-18 16:24:39 <@samccann:ansible.im> 1 - change the time and see if things improve 2025-03-18 16:25:00 <@samccann:ansible.im> 2. do some deep navel gazing on the purpose of this WG and what it's goal is 2025-03-18 16:25:34 <@gotmax:matrix.org> I've been dealing with health issues recently and generally have been very busy but this time actually does fit in well with my usual schedule 2025-03-18 16:25:37 <@samccann:ansible.im> 3. Go async and just use the forum. 2025-03-18 16:25:59 <@samccann:ansible.im> hey gotmax23 sorry to hear on the health, but always a joy to see you pop in here! 2025-03-18 16:26:06 <@x1101:matrix.org> Are there more unsolved issues because there are fewer people working on them, beecause we don't have _the right_ people working on them, because we're getting in more issues, or some combination thereof 2025-03-18 16:26:34 <@samccann:ansible.im> fewer people working on them would be my random guess. 2025-03-18 16:27:01 <@samccann:ansible.im> though I wonder if there is a github chart somewhere that would show issues over time or something to see if we are getting more issues opened 2025-03-18 16:27:15 <@x1101:matrix.org> (my observation from being around and then not and now _trying_ to make it back agrees. but its a limited perspecgive) 2025-03-18 16:29:05 <@samccann:ansible.im> !topic what's the purpose/mission of DaWGs 2025-03-18 16:29:11 <@samccann:ansible.im> Let's try a little navel gazing 2025-03-18 16:29:49 <@samccann:ansible.im> imo the purpose is quality documentation with a supportive community of contributors 2025-03-18 16:30:40 <@samccann:ansible.im> with priorities in order: 1 - merge/review PRs 2 - Fix important docs issues 3 - Ensure/improve docs usefulness/readability etc 2025-03-18 16:30:47 <@x1101:matrix.org> are the tools around building and publishing docs _implicitly_ part of that, or should that get called out explicitly? 2025-03-18 16:30:53 <@samccann:ansible.im> note 'fix important docs issues' means we won't fix everything 2025-03-18 16:31:00 <@samccann:ansible.im> good point 2025-03-18 16:31:17 <@samccann:ansible.im> Oranod should pipe in here as more the tools person 2025-03-18 16:31:34 <@samccann:ansible.im> I'd put docs tooling at 2.5 in the above list 2025-03-18 16:32:15 <@samccann:ansible.im> and yeah should be called out separately, not implicit as there is a LOT of work gone on there that has made #1 and #2 so much easier in the past 2 years 2025-03-18 16:34:59 <@x1101:matrix.org> An observation that's percolating up for me. I went to RHSummit last year and was reminded how important the OpenSource community is to me. I went looking for ways to get involved with projects I already knew. The fact that this channel and meeting exist, were regular, had good onboarding tasks, and folks around to discuss them with is what drew me in. I realize that's a sample size of (1) and not super significant, but its the only story I have personal experince with. 2025-03-18 16:35:22 <@acozine:ansible.im> I think those goals sound good 2025-03-18 16:35:52 <@x1101:matrix.org> (I use Ansible in my day-to-day at work, and have been a consumer of the docs for ages.) 2025-03-18 16:37:09 <@acozine:ansible.im> I think if these meetings stopped, I would probably not do any docs work for ansible - not because I would stop wanting to, but because without the weekly calendar entry it would drop down and down my to-do list 2025-03-18 16:37:32 <@samccann:ansible.im> Thanks Lyle (He/Him) (@x1101) that is a good point. We in the community team also consider docs to be a good entry point for anyone looking to contribute to ansible. Some folks fix some docs stuff, start to feel comfortable, then move on to code fixes in other areas 2025-03-18 16:38:15 <@x1101:matrix.org> That's my _goal_, but I'm really more of an engineer than a developer. As such, docs, tools, and testing are my comfortable space 2025-03-18 16:38:24 <@samccann:ansible.im> (ps .. one of the reasons we do need to adjust the time is my community team counterpart can't make this slot.. thus his sporadic silence here today) 2025-03-18 16:38:32 <@acozine:ansible.im> meeting once a week keeps me connected (as connected as I've been able to be since my promotion) 2025-03-18 16:38:45 <@samccann:ansible.im> congrats on the promotion! 2025-03-18 16:38:58 <@acozine:ansible.im> thanks! 2025-03-18 16:39:55 <@samccann:ansible.im> But it seems two things have popped out in this discussion so far - docs as an entry way into Ansible contributions as part of our mission, and dropping the weekly live meeting could make it harder for folks to 'remember the docs' so to speak 2025-03-18 16:40:26 <@samccann:ansible.im> Just curious, acozine Lyle (He/Him) (@x1101) - do you follow documentation stuff (or other stuff) on the Ansible Forum, or do you primarily use matrix to keep up on things? 2025-03-18 16:41:25 <@x1101:matrix.org> Matrix/Github for documentation. But I've also been trying to be more active on the forum. I had a _really good_ experince there, and was reminded (again) that paying it forward matters 2025-03-18 16:42:21 <@acozine:ansible.im> I mostly use Matrix 2025-03-18 16:42:31 <@acozine:ansible.im> I try to look at the Forum 2025-03-18 16:42:46 <@samccann:ansible.im> ok thanks. I know it's a sample size of 2, but as the two showing up here... that counts a lot :-) 2025-03-18 16:43:37 <@acozine:ansible.im> but I find it harder to figure out the status of the conversation on the Forum 2025-03-18 16:44:14 <@samccann:ansible.im> yeah I need to do a better job of linking between the two. I still predominantly use matrix for docs things 2025-03-18 16:44:15 <@acozine:ansible.im> for whatever reason, I don't navigate it as well 2025-03-18 16:45:22 <@samccann:ansible.im> ok I'll discuss w/ Don when he's around to see if there is some minor shift to the time that might help him 2025-03-18 16:45:24 <@samccann:ansible.im> meanwhile 2025-03-18 16:46:12 <@samccann:ansible.im> ^info general feeling is we need to focus/decide our mission as a working group, but those attending today mostly prefer to keep a live meeting going as a weekly reminder for docs 2025-03-18 16:46:39 <@samccann:ansible.im> ^info Also, docs are a good intro to contributing to Ansible so that is part of our mission, beyond providing quality documentation 2025-03-18 16:47:03 <@samccann:ansible.im> ...almost said 'at a K-mart price' but that's very US-centric (and old.. they no longer exist afaik) 2025-03-18 16:47:16 <@acozine:ansible.im> heh 2025-03-18 16:47:20 <@x1101:matrix.org> If that's old. so am I 2025-03-18 16:47:27 <@x1101:matrix.org> (confirmed) 2025-03-18 16:47:48 <@samccann:ansible.im> heh 2025-03-18 16:47:52 <@samccann:ansible.im> !topic Open Floor 2025-03-18 16:47:53 <@acozine:ansible.im> yep, me too 2025-03-18 16:47:58 <@samccann:ansible.im> anything else in docs land to bring up today? 2025-03-18 16:48:41 <@acozine:ansible.im> no topics from me, I'll take a look at the open issues, see if there's an easy one I can pick off 2025-03-18 16:48:56 <@x1101:matrix.org> If the Forum is to become part of the strategy, having docs related things easier to find (either with a Category or Tag) might help? 2025-03-18 16:49:48 <@samccann:ansible.im> Lyle (He/Him) (@x1101): there is - 2025-03-18 16:50:04 <@samccann:ansible.im> ^info we use https://forum.ansible.com/tag/dawgs-meeting as the tag for documentation wg discussion on the forum 2025-03-18 16:50:22 <@samccann:ansible.im> but again, I'm very sporadic myself in using it 2025-03-18 16:50:40 <@samccann:ansible.im> ^info use that tag in the forum to bring up discussion points for the DaWGs. 2025-03-18 16:50:52 <@samccann:ansible.im> so anyone can post in the forum and use that tag to get our attention 2025-03-18 16:51:00 <@samccann:ansible.im> for discussion by the WG 2025-03-18 16:52:33 <@samccann:ansible.im> ok seems like a good ending point unless anyone screams :-) 2025-03-18 16:52:38 <@acozine:ansible.im> heh 2025-03-18 16:52:52 <@samccann:ansible.im> !endmeeting 2025-03-18 16:52:58 <@samccann:ansible.im> thanks everyone! interesting discussions! 2025-03-18 16:53:32 <@samccann:ansible.im> We have one more week with US and EU at different times so US folks - we'll be an hour later again next week 2025-03-18 17:32:00 <@orandon:ansible.im> thanks samccann acozine and Lyle (He/Him) (@x1101) -- sorry as I guess I was only half there today. it looks like there was some good discussion. I think it'd be good to focus on the mission some more, especially if we could shift the meetings to more strategy on docs contributions. it seems like the dawgs meetings started to skew heavily towards tooling but that will probably fade out a bit more once we get things over to RTD as well as the fact things are pretty nicely set up after the RST lift and shift out of `ansible/ansible`.